Via Peter Grenader on the Plan B list:"All this talk, so where's the bacon? I've posted some sound samples of the M24 doing it's thing. Go here and scroll to Sound Samples. the Model 24 will be shipping in two weeks.
enjoy.
- P"
Update via Peter in the comments:
"For the record:
1) The M24 IS NOT BASED ON BUCHLA'S DESIGNS other than their function. It's microprocessor based.It's not based on anyone's design, the circuit is completely unique inside. Have a look at the block diagram on the M24 page of the EAR site, you'll see what I'm talking bout.
2) The M12 iis NOT a clone of anything. Buchla's filter is state variable, but a completely different architecture. Mine has four modes, Don's has one...they both use Vactrols, as does Dieter's Stweiner Filter. If you feel you must credit me for 'borrowing', then credit Don Lancaster - because the M12 came from reading his filter cookbook that I borrowed from Mike Brown. That's the only borrowing that went into that one.
3) The M13 is close to the Buchla 292 - but there are some significant changes in play there, namely an added opamp feedback which greatly improved it's functionality for non-Buchla signal levels."
"On 'clones'
Adaptations are nothing new. The point has been made about the many many Moog Ladder clones, but let's not overlook the Wiard Wogglebug and the Buchla 266 as well as the Wiard Borg and the Buchla 292, Banalogue's full product line, the Livewire and Cynthia Steiner filters, The Cynthia and Doepfer Wasp, The Livewire Bissell Gen, the list goes on and on.
And while the Model 13 is the only circuit adaptation in our line, so is the Cynthia Lowpass Gate (I know because I designed that circuit) and the Wiard Borg, although I don't see comments about either of these.
Add to the mix that well over 60% of the new analog instruments being released today are based on circuits published in Electronotes. The only function in the entire Plan B line that can be found in Electronotes is the sine shaper in the Model 15, but that was only an Electronotes reprint of a circuit originally published in an article Electronics Magazine in the mid-sixties and was done so as an appnote - meaning they intended for people to use it, that's why it was there.
More on this, the M24 is functionally similar to the Buchla 266 as it produces a stepped and smooth random state (and a bunch of toehr stuff).Well, so does the Wogglebug, the Doepfer A149-1(half of the 266 anyway), The Doepfer A-118 (the other half), the Serge Random Voltage Gen...but we all went about it differently and we all included unique features not in the original. Clearly a 'how would I make something that has this function among others' as opposed to 'how to I make a 266 clone' approach on all counts.
For the record however, I personally asked Buchla and Associates if they would have a problem with this and their reply was no, 'everyone needs a wiggley voltage'."
he forgot to add an "incompetence inside" graphic.
ReplyDeleteany bets on how many fixes he announces 6 months after release? perhaps he'll be up to model 12 mark VII by then. ;-)
why be anonymous if you are slaging someone off thats weak
ReplyDeleteA nice looking module but why not call an apple and apple? mean=offset, deviation=amplitude, chaos=slew rate, meter=clock. I guess these names reflect buchlatudiness or something.
ReplyDeleteAlso, FWIW psuedorandom != random, and IMHO the "xxx inside" labeling is pretty goofy.
Does this thing output "audio rate uncertainty" - ie - white/pink noise?
Geez, non-stop bashing of all things Buchla-ish. If you don't like the aesthetic, go get your self a MOTM, Dot.com, Blacet, Doepfer, etc. These module functions are named as such because they are based on Don Buchla's circuit designs. Mr. Buchla condones this practice, but asks that the face plates are not copied. In another discussion someone was asking for Buchla 200 clones at $500 per module, well, here you go. Plan B is your answer. Personally, I think peter should have gone the 1v route and distinguished between CV and Audio, but hey, you cannot have everything. I get the feelng people who bash Buchla and Buchla-ish systems are just manufacturers of moduler systems feeling the pinch since people are saving their pennies and not buying a MOTM or what ever.
ReplyDeleteHobbyists everywhere should be pscyched that people like Peter have tapped into your market demographic so that you can pay a reasonable amount of your disposable income to play with modules like this without either subjecting yourself to the artistic feifdom that is academia, making a bundle in the private sector, or, god forbid, having an actual career in the music business. It's a golden age. Plug those molded cables into those card-mounted jacks & live it up!
ReplyDeleteGo Tim!
ReplyDeleteThe M24 is fucking sweet. And no, it's noise out is not white or pink noise (at least it wasn't a month ago). And dear 'other': offset = mean, amplitude = deviation, dick head. These terms are actually better descriptions of the module's functions. If they are a little confusing, at least try to find some virtue in the fact that peter is trying to be different. And you may ask, how does 'meter' on this module differ from 'clock' on all others? That's obvious. This module triggers on rhythmic divisions of the clock, hence making it inherently musical. How many (instrumental) musicians go around refering to a piece's clock???
Anyway, I got the chance to play with this module some time ago, and I think everyone will love it.
lol, u all must be paid well.
ReplyDeleteHAHAHA NOT TRUE!
ReplyDeletetell me again how "peter is trying to be different" when these designs "are based on Don Buchla's circuit designs", and when the terminology and function is stolen from the more useful serge smooth and stepped generators. I certainly would choose a world where every "new" module represented a new idea AND a new circuit design instead of this. if we continue to settle for copying the past with minor changes (mostly combining two estabilshed designs) instead of demanding new ideas and functions we will never advance the art. yes this is not an exact clone of another design, which is reassuring considering how prevalent such products are, however it is a thinly veiled attempt to recreate old functions without taking them somewhere new.
ReplyDeletewhat is up with people complaining about the plan B stuff all the time. if you don't like it, don't fucking buy it, and stop wasting everyone's time slagging off people anonymously.
ReplyDelete"the terminology and function is stolen from the more useful serge smooth and stepped generators."
ReplyDeleteCan you substantiate this not having used an m24? Even if you had, this comment is instantly refutable by anyone who doesn't own a serge system.
"it is a thinly veiled attempt to recreate old functions without taking them somewhere new."
Obviously, you can't read.
fixes? weird, none of mine have needed "fixes" which sadly isn't true about my Blacet modules, nothing against Blacet, and never a big deal, but those are the only modules i can recall having fixes needed.
ReplyDeletePeter's designs are excellent, his communication needs to be improved, and maybe he pissed you off that way... and well, i understand if you don't want to support that. But it doesn't change the fact that these are very exciting modules! all of them.
"Can you substantiate this not having used an m24? Even if you had, this comment is instantly refutable by anyone who doesn't own a serge system."
ReplyDeletefor the terminology yes this is easy to substantiate having never used one. for the functionality, i am relying on the description on the plan b website (which suprisingly i can read!). and yes i own a serge system.
i was merely pointing out that while these modules may be interesting to many people, they are not new ideas as many folks seem to think. this is of course not a problem legally or anything, it is only a difficulty for me personally because it reflects an overwhelming interest in stagnating the state of the art. that coupled with a curious advertisment campaign that avoids revealing the truth of the designs, ideas and their origins. for example, what is the motivation to release a module called "Dual Timbral Gates" instead of simply saying that it is a clone of a Buchla lopass gate. or why make a module called "State Variable Vactrol Filter" when it is a clone of the Buchla Dual Voltage-Controlled Filter in secret. and the list goes on. the difference between this and something like a blatant ripoff like doepfer is that it is never stated what module design this really is, which to me is worse for the state of the art because it serves as a substitute for innovation, whereas doepfer is not claiming innovation. also it should be mentioned that i dont want to discredit peter for his hard work and the changes he made to update these circuits. im sure he is doing great in these categories, and i wish him continued sucess in whatever path he chooses. this is however an open call for innovation. where are the truly new ideas (only in software?).
p.s. only the post beginning with "tell me" is from me. the others are from another poster.
yes.. igota get an acct. but really Peter's been honest about what he copied or derived the idea from. the model 15 VCO is the buchla 258 2+5+8=15
ReplyDeletethe lpg was clearly the same and noted, the m12, well i think that's his own from tinkering, right? and was excited and rushe dit a bit, and that's why the design is really maturing now.
Serge stuff is ok... it was budget gear and great in many ways, but i find it sonically a bit shallow and lacking, and underdeveloped. Great ideas and some great modules... but a tad overrated.
I think what Peter and all the other small manufacturers are doing is fantastic and they deserve kudos for their efforts. I previously said I think this is a nice looking multi-function module. A good contribution to the field. That said, I think I can offer criticism, even superficial as it might be, without expecting to be called a dick head.
ReplyDeleteTerminology should not obscure function. It shouldn't confuse one into thinking, "Wow something really new is happening here, I need to study it and learn from it", and then find, no nothing really new. A repackaging, perhaps nicely considered and integrated, but new?
Back to the terminology, take for example the Chaos 'tactile control' (eg knob). Chaos has nothing to do with voltage controlled slew rate. There is no connection. Chaos was sort of trendy a few years ago though, and I guess the word sounds cool. Is it precise to label this knob this way? No.
Now how about mean and deviation. Ok, perhaps precise. They are not however terms typically in the musician's lexicon. I doubt many musicians have taken course work in statistics. Are you going to tell me musicians know what the greek letters chi and sigma indicate? So what is the point? There's a VCA (deviation), there's an opamp with a DC offset control (mean).
Done. Simple. Clear.
What is almost comical is that on the web page and all the linked images, mean and deviation aren't used that often. What is instead? "Input Offset", "Speed", "Slew Time", "Slew Output".
With regard to "Nonamous" comments about stagnation. I'm afraid the field is mature. Is there anything new to be discovered? I hate to sound negative, but I think we're at the "end of science" as far as analog modular synths go. Has there been anything truly new in analog synthesis is the last 10 or 20 years? We can scale things up, we can keep up with technology. Is there anything else left to do?
BTW, If I was a dick head I'd mention I took Modern Physics and studied quantum mechanics. Does Heisenberg's Principle have anything to do with a psuedorandom voltage generator? It's been a while, but if there is a connection I'm uncertain what it is.
-Dick Head
Guys,
ReplyDeleteFor the record:
1) The M24 IS NOT BASED ON BUCHLA'S DESIGNS other than their function. It's microprocessor based.It'sjot based on anyone's design, the circuit is completely unique inside. Have a look at the block diagram on the M24 page of the EAR site, you'll see what I'm talking bout.
2) The M12 iis NOT a clone of anything. Buchla's filter is state variable, but a completely different architecture. Mine has four modes, Don's has one...they both use Vactrols, as does Dieter's Stweiner Filter. If you feel you must credit me for 'borrowing', then credit Don Lancaster - because the M12 came from reading his filter cookbook that I borrowed from Mike Brown. That's the only borrowing that went into that one.
3) The M13 is close to the Buchla 292 - but there are some significant changes in play there, namely an added opamp feedback which greatly improved it's functionality for non-Buchla signal levels.
4) The COmmoents about the M12 Mark II due to fixes ais completelt bullshit (Matrix..would you please consider putting an end anonymous posts so these cowards will cut this crap out?). The Mark II change was not to fix a bug - over 50 of these have been sold prior to this change being made. They were inprovements. A lot of people do this all the time...but unfortunately, I'm the only one being nailed for it.
And yeah, if you hate my products, there are a lot fo other fine synth manufacturers out there...please feel free to buy somewhere else.
- P
other siad:
ReplyDelete""Back to the terminology, take for example the Chaos 'tactile control' (eg knob). Chaos has nothing to do with voltage controlled slew rate.""
Not true.
The Chaos knob controls two things: the speed of the internal VCLFO that drives microproccessor and...the it produces a variable voltage that...controls the internal VC slew generator which converts the stepped voltages a wigglwey one.
Turning this knob increased the amount of random activity...e.g., Chaos and it has everything to do with slew.
- P
I don't understand why so many people feel they have to knock Peter's effort's so much. They have critized him for just about everything. Late deliveries was the first one. From the look at the Analogue Haven stock on their site, Plan B is shipping in numbers and on time. If not this, then they knock him for something else. The latest is stolen designs. Can anyone name the originalities that have come from the new modular synthesizer manufacturers? Is the count more than two hands? I think you'll find quickly that this is not just a Plan B disease.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with the poster who said if you don't like this equipment, don't buy it and move on. I am losing my patience with anonymous trolling on the Matrixsynth list and agree with Mr. Grenader. The anonymous posting privelidge has obviously been misused and needs to stop.
Ok, guys, here's the deal. I've received a number of complaints about anonymous posters, particularly those slaming Buchla and Plan B. As any given person can post multiple times under anonymous and pretend to be more than one person, I'm going to implement a new policy. No slamming using anonymous accounts period. If you feel strongly enough about any given situation or post, take the time to voice your opinion with your name behind it. I will remove anonymous comments that slam manufacturers moving forward. The interesting thing is you never see this behavior on AH. Why? Because you can't do so anonymously.
ReplyDeleteAnd for what it's worth, I've heard of zero complaints on the AH list regarding Plan B. If you are a potential customer, checking out Plan B, don't hesitate.
ReplyDeletePete is a stand up guy who fixes his products and is always looking to improve them... why slag on him for wanting to improve his spec?
ReplyDeleteThis isn't Microsoft, this is a cottage operation that has been growing for good reason.. good and interesting products.
I've yet to understand what the backlash is about other than folks like to get a rise out of Mr. Grenader
He makes some pretty kick-ass modules that aren't just clones of Moog filters or even Buchla, though it is clear which side of the synth philosophy fence he resides on.
If anyone can rightfully follow in the heritage of West Coast electronic musical instrument design, it is he.
If you want to make phat string simulations or whatever, there are plenty of moog-wannabes out there.. otherwise Plan B modules sound damn good and are more conducive to experimenting with interesting sounds.
Synth elitism vs. democracy. I'll go with the populist side and say that I am glad that interesting synths are available to mere mortals with limited funds.. and there will be more to come I am certain.
so thanks Peter & Plan B - Bryan
I too love Peters work and think he is one of the most ethusiastic original synth builders out there, who often takes time out to be like the rest of us ( because he is) and be an active member of this online community.
ReplyDeleteGive the guy a break.
On 'clones'
ReplyDeleteI've gone into the specific points made here, please go up a few posts for that, however...
Adaptations are nothing new. The point has been made about the many many Moog Ladder clones, but let's not overlook the Wiard Wogglebug and the Buchla 266 as well as the Wiard Borg and the Buchla 292, Banalogue's full product line, the Livewire and Cynthia Steiner filters, The Cynthia and Doepfer Wasp, The Livewire Bissell Gen, the list goes on and on.
And while the Model 13 is the only circuit adaptation in our line, so is the Cynthia Lowpass Gate (I know because I designed that circuit) and the Wiard Borg, although I don't see comments about either of these.
Add to the mix that well over 60% of the new analog instruments being released today are based on circuits published in Electronotes. The only function in the entire Plan B line that can be found in Electronotes is the sine shaper in the Model 15, but that was only an Electronotes reprint of a circuit originally published in an article Electronics Magazine in the mid-sixties and was done so as an appnote - meaning they intended for people to use it, that's why it was there.
More on this, the M24 is functionally similar to the Buchla 266 as it produces a stepped and smooth random state (and a bunch of toehr stuff).Well, so does the Wogglebug, the Doepfer A149-1(half of the 266 anyway), The Doepfer A-118 (the other half), the Serge Random Voltage Gen...but we all went about it differently and we all included unique features not in the original. Clearly a 'how would I make something that has this function among others' as opposed to 'how to I make a 266 clone' approach on all counts.
For the record however, I personally asked Buchla and Associates if they would have a problem with this and their reply was no, 'everyone needs a wiggley voltage". With all due respect, I didn't feel I need to ask you guys for your permission, too!!
- P
Peter, I'm afraid you are completely wrong about the definition of Chaos. "Increased random activity" is not chaos. Do a little research online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory, or get James Gleick's book "Chaos", an easy read and interesting popularization of the subject. It may even be fruitful grounds for a new module.
ReplyDeleteRe: Chaos not being literal.
ReplyDeleteYes, I broke stride with this moniker as the others controls are more literal. Call it creative license. (the Metasonix Wretch Machine doesn't vomit, either!!)
But...what else to call it? 'Speed' doesn't do it, because while it does in fact increase the speed, other parameters are effected intentionally: the amount of fluctuation, the range of that fluctuation, the slope of those changes, as well as an algorithmic change - Pin 13 of the processor, labeled 'Low Speed Slew Correction" in the attached block diagram changes it's behavour in the higher ranges:
http://www.ear-group.net/M24block.jpg
You see, it's more than merely a change in periodicity and slew rate. The net result, the probability is altered as this pot is turned CW - the personality of the output is effected to keep the Deviation constant throughout the enitre pot range.
'Slew' isn't descriptive enough and Speed/Slew/Randomess is a bit too wordy. 'Chaos' was an attempt at a one-word metaphoric solution.
- P
Regarding this:
ReplyDeleteAlso, FWIW psuedorandom != random, and IMHO the "xxx inside" labeling is pretty goofy.
That's not an XXX - the pictures I've posted aren't tight enough to pick up the detail of that graphic as it's quite small. That's the asymetrical symbol for Chaos, shown here a bit larger:
go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos
::Does this thing output "audio rate uncertainty" - ie - white/pink noise?''
This thing doesn't run on either pink or white noise, so it generates neither. It runs on the summed output of two independent 16 bit shift registers output by the microcontroller which is conditioned by an r/c once in the analog domain. The 'Source Output' is a buffered version of what the M24 uses to derive all of it's random. Go to the Model 24 page on the EAR site, there's a sound sample of thwt signal. Download it, use it a source in your own sample and hold - you can test the effects, although I do some processing internally which doesn't make it to the Source Output.
As far as the audio speed of the Smooth Output itself, the analog VCLFO which drives computer's random pulse generator runs from .1hZ to 3.5Khz. HOwever, that random gen. divides that parent clock into musical intervals (have a look at the possible outcome states of the SMOOTH triggering on the M24 page on the EAR site) While it's still audio range afer that, it's very low frequency. I believe that's called blue noise, yes? I believe so.
- P