The new MMM “Phoenix Series” (Micro-Mini) Modular Synthesizer
By Mattson Mini Modular.
The MMM Phoenix series synthesizer incorporates true-analog modules encased in a “grab and go” housing format.
Each of the two system cabinets contain space for 12 modules fed by a common power supply, providing for a truly portable, 24 module, analog modular system. When you’re ready to go, the cabinets latch face-to face into a compact, protective enclosure measuring 11-3/8” (28.89cm) W X 15” (38.1cm) H X 7” (17.78cm) D. Roughly, the size of 6 packages of printer paper stacked 3 high, side by side.
Open, the system measures 23” (58.42cm) W X 15” (38.1cm) H X 3.5” (8.89cm) D. As your budget and needs grow, the system has been designed to interlock with additional systems, horizontally and vertically, for virtually infinite system expansion. Each system responding to one of 16 MIDI channels if so desired. Grow your system into a larger system with more creative power available than is available in a larger format system of the same size. When it’s time to go, the entire system breaks down easily into independent, easy to transport cases.
The modules conform to the electrical audio and CV standards of most of the currently available systems and can be cross-patchable with other manufacturers systems.Initially, the system will only be available in the US and in limited, built-to-order production runs. Individual modules won’t be immediately for sale but will be available to be purchased in addition to the “basic system” order.
The basic system consists of the case, power supply/MIDI module and the 10 modules highlighted on Matrixsynth over the past week, these modules fill the entire first cabinet providing for a plug-and-experiment, complete basic modular synthesizer. The second cabinet contains space for 12 additional modules of your choice.
The basic system is offered for $1,595.00. Additional “core” modules for the second case will be offered for $105.00 each, regardless off the module. Since the additional modules must be ordered initially with the basic system, the modules will be discounted $5.00 from the retail module value.The Power Supply/MIDI module is a 2-space module that is integrated into the system and will not be available for individual purchase.
Visit us at http://www.mattsonminimodular.com"
I wonder if I saw this bfore anyone else?
ReplyDeletewell, matrix and I are watching.
ReplyDeleteGeorge Mattson
Man that's grrrreat!!!
ReplyDeleteKeep up the ggod work and nice website!
When can we expect some samples?
Its a heck of a lot smaller than I was expecting!
ReplyDelete(thats what she said!)
oooh .. user forum!
ReplyDeleteI hope this answers "why" the new format. This thing is TINY!
ReplyDeleteRemember, I used to tour in a band. LOL
Enjoy the site everyone. Thanks for the fun over the past week.
George Mattson-
going to bed
Hmmm,
ReplyDeleteI think I am going to mod other modules to fit in Mattson (Micro-Mini) Modular format!!!
Does it really house 12 seperate modules or 10? From the looks it only houses 10 individual modules along with the PS/MIDI-CV which takes 2 spaces and from what George has said is not sold seperately and included in the package. So 10 modules plus PS, right?
ReplyDeleteThat is for the initial cabinet.
ReplyDeleteMMMMMaybe it should be the MmMM
ReplyDeleteThe PS/CV2MIDI module is a 'double wide' module which was combined for design reasons.
ReplyDeleteI'm not really getting the bargain here. So $1600 for a *really* basic monosynth, expandible to $2700 for a still very modest and feature poor modular? The portability is nice I suppose for people who need to do lots of gigging with a modular, but this is hardly the super extra mega bargain that was promised.
ReplyDeleteWait, so we cannot order individual modules unless we order a full system first? I may be wrong, but that is what the post seemed to imply.
ReplyDeleteIt does seem a bit steep for what it is. A similar frac system could be purchsed for the same amount or cheaper. Its not as cheap pricewise as it seemed to hyped up as.
ReplyDeleteIt's 12 spaces, even though the Midi and PS are one unit, they can be considered 2 seperate functions. Other systems use a space or two or... for a power "panel" not necesarly the supply itself
ReplyDelete24 modules in that tiny space is sweet! Looking forward to hearing it.
ReplyDeleteSad about the dissing. It's more flexible than I was expecting though in unusual ways. Sync will be missed but some of the other goodies are nice!
He did say basic modules. Maybe once it gets going he'll design more complex modules.
ReplyDeleteI think it's kewwwwl.
hats off to you George. We appreciate the hard work you put into this
Other systems either have the PS rear mounted or inside the rack so it takes not actual "real estate" at all. No offense, but I am also a bit disappointed with the price point vs. features. I assumed it would be much more economical. For that price, why not go frac or euro and have the open option for expansion in the future with many other compatible companies?
ReplyDeleteEven a Dotcom system with this functionality costs about the same.... Actually more functionality in places, especially the OSC's...
ReplyDeleteWhile the $100 for each extra module sounds great on the surface, when you think about it that's overpaying for alot of stuff. $100 for a basic noise source or a mixer or a VCA? It's actually more than you'd pay from any of the other manufacturers for those modules.
I put in an order with these additional modules:
ReplyDelete2 vcos
1 vcf
1 vca
1 adsr
1 4xmixer
1 1x1x2buffer
1 sh
So thats 20 modules (or 18 if you don't count the PS and midi). Any one else put an order in?
I bet the "home depot" guy that felt the need to post in every thread with authority feels retarded now, LOL!
ReplyDelete"Any one else put an order in?"
ReplyDeleteNope, I'm happy with my modukar as it is. I wish George the best of luck though. I would guess this is aimed more at the newbie who is making his first modular purchase.
Excellent!
ReplyDeleteWell, how much is the rack + PS alone, seems about the same as doepfer and more expensive than blacet.
ReplyDelete" I would guess this is aimed more at the newbie who is making his first modular purchase."
ReplyDeleteIts too bad you guess that way.
I'm not sure what other way you would guess. Why would anyone owning an existing modular want to overpay for modules that their own systems already do better? Just because it's in a "handy" little portable cabinet (that will become a nightmare to patch around when it gets crowded with patch cords)?
ReplyDeleteNow that the cat's out of the bag I can finally join in a bit. I put an order in for a base system a while back. Several months actually. : ) And.... I played it. The first time the prototype ever produced a sound was at my place and... it sounded good. The images do a decent job at showing the size of the system, but having it right in front of you is a totally different experience. George downplayed the graphics, but I actually think the look very nice. I won't be changing mine. The fact that it is so portable in that you can just close the case and go is pretty amazing. It will definitely turn into the default modular on the go for me.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the latches are built so you can stack and lock cases. So you can quickly assemble a modular wall and of course take it down just as quickly.
As for the modules they offer a bit more than the bread and butter starter systems out there. IMO it's a starter system with quite a bit more. The fact that you can run all three waveforms on the OSC at different octaves will be interesting. Loopable envs, the MIDI PS, and so on. Really powerful for the price and the size.
Note this is the announcement but more will be coming. Samples, more in depth explanations of what you can do with the modules and so on. I'm hoping and am pretty sure some of the other early adopters will come forth and start discussing what they are doing with the system as well. I'm really interested in hearing from Carbon111 who has spent a good amount of time with the Serge. When we were checking out the modular for the first time he was genuinely surprised at some of what you could do with the system.
" I would guess this is aimed more at the newbie who is making his first modular purchase."
ReplyDelete...or someone who plays a lot of shows and is tired of dragging their Mighty-Mega-Modular around.
So how close to a "syntar in a box" is this? It may be worth the price to have the basic syntar sound, since it (the syntar) is a collectable now which fetches a VERY high dollar.
ReplyDelete"...or someone who plays a lot of shows and is tired of dragging their Mighty-Mega-Modular around."
ReplyDeleteUhh, you could just get a Doepfer suitcase and some modules, which from the looks of it so far, would be less money for more functionality.
"So how close to a "syntar in a box" is this? It may be worth the price to have the basic syntar sound, since it (the syntar) is a collectable now which fetches a VERY high dollar."
ReplyDeleteIt seems that anything "Phoenix Series" is exactly what was in the Syntar.
"Uhh, you could just get a Doepfer suitcase and some modules, which from the looks of it so far, would be less money for more functionality."
ReplyDeleteWhat a Doepfy idea.
The filter is a totally new design from JP though, so I'm sure that doesn't sound the same. Is the Syntar collectable for the sound, or for the rarity of the machine itself?
ReplyDeleteAlso, I have to agree that a Doepfer or Dotcom suitcase offers more functionality for the same money or less.
"Is the Syntar collectable for the sound, or for the rarity of the machine itself?"
ReplyDeleteHmm...good question. I can't say that I have ever known anyone that has come in contact with the syntar. Is there any high quality wav files of the syntar that are available to listen to? (sorry to go OT, just curious)
A ten module Doepfer system in a 4U aluminum rack is $1500. How is that such a better deal? The functionality is different but not better per se and the build quality on the Doepfers are only so-so.
ReplyDeleteWhats the deal with the knobs? Looks like just a rubber sleeve on the pot, also the scale markings seem odd, should have 10 (or 11 if you want the spinal tap extra bit) but looks like only 7?
ReplyDeleteIt also looks like the panels have laminated paper/vinyl sticker overlays for the legend, how about having a choice of design "skins" because no offense the look of the current panels may be a turn off for some. I could design a better panel for it and it would be nice to be able to have the option of buying them blank or sending in the artwork for custom designs (I'd pay $100 extra for that)
But I do think it looks like a well featured mini system given some of the innovative functions.
The price seems neither outrageous or a bargain, but about what I'd expect.
"Hmm...good question. I can't say that I have ever known anyone that has come in contact with the syntar. Is there any high quality wav files of the syntar that are available to listen to? (sorry to go OT, just curious)"
ReplyDeleteI own a Syntar, however the wood appointments are currently being done in black walnut. The Syntar's filter was an SSM2040 IC VCF, which everyone knows to be a great filter. The key to the Syntar is the left hand controllers which allow you to shape what your playing like no other synth. I wouldn't call the Syntar's synth a noobie or basic synth, its actually quite involved and has several routings and features that no other mono synths had.
I'm really interested in hearing the JP Filter chosen for the MMM. Knowing JP's track record, it should be incredible.
Once the Syntar is together, I'll be happy to get some sound samples together .. but I honestly think that the MMM is going to match or better the Syntar.
It's very close. The design, from my understanding, is based on the Syntar. Oh, I should add that I'm curious to hear what Stephen will say about it as well.
ReplyDeleteBTW, feel free to discuss here but of course drop by the forum on the Mattson Mini Modular site as well.
"A ten module Doepfer system in a 4U aluminum rack is $1500. How is that such a better deal?"
ReplyDeleteBecause those 10 modules have better functionality, and are backed by a much more comprehensive module lineup that features a much broader range of possibilities. There are a couple of "neat" things about some of these modules, but nothing here wasn't done by synthesizers in the 1970's with the exception of MIDI.
Fewer, lesser quality modules for approximately the same price in a cheaper, smaller case is no "great savings" to me.
ReplyDeleteThe MMM is an attractive system to me.
Oh please. Kraftwerk uses Doepfer A-100 modules, it's not like they fall apart when you touch them. Take a look at their catalog, they offer quite a bit more functionality in those fewer modules. Many of them are cheaper as well.
ReplyDeletebuyer beware!
ReplyDeletei hope it's not going to be a re-run of the brice. d hornback psim fiasco!
Enjoy your modular dude, you can buy whatever brand you want. Why do you have so much invested in putting this one down?
ReplyDeleteCan Matrix or someone else with one of the prototypes post some sound examples?
ReplyDelete"Can Matrix or someone else with one of the prototypes post some sound examples?"
ReplyDeleteThey'll be up tomorrow night more than likely. Hopefully that doesn't put too much pressure on anyone (sorry).
I predict this will be as successful as the Syntar.
ReplyDeleteThis post is not meant to detract from the MMM system in the slightest. I think that there are some cool features to be found there. You should get it because you really like the features or the sound, but I don't think that price should be the deciding factor, as it's not _that_ much cheaper than Doepfer, for example. To put the price in perspective, here's the MMM Base System roughly recreated in Doepfer modules (which I'd guess fills about half a Doepfer rack, although I didn't add it up) :
ReplyDeleteMMM Voltage Controlled Oscillator
A-110 $199 10
MMM 'JP' Voltage Controlled Filter
MMM Voltage Controlled Amplifier
A-109 $175 20
Slightly cheating here with the Doepfer Voltage Controlled Signal Processor
MMM Dual Low Frequency Oscillator Module
A-143-3 $145 14
This is actually a quad LFO, but the MMM has a couple in the S/H, too.
MMM Sample and Hold Module
A-148 $80 4
MMM Envelope Generator Module
A-140 $95 8
MMM Portamento/Glissando Glide Module
A-170 $80 8
MMM Triple Noise Module
A-118 $90 8
MMM 4 x 1x2 Buffer Module
A-180 $45 4
A-180 $45 4
Mults, not buffered.
MMM 4 x Mixer Module
A-138c $90 8
MMM Power Supply and CV to MIDI Module
A-190 $230 10
A100AD5 $22 5v power supply needed for MIDI interface
Suitcase $530 18" x 13" x 8.25" (w, h, d) with the cover on.
Doepfer Total $1826
The Doepfer system is about 15% more than the MMM system, if I've done my math right.
The Doepfer case is slightly larger when closed, much smaller when opened (go figure).
A Dotcom system comes to about the same as well:
ReplyDeleteQ104 MIDI Interface $184.00
Q105 Slew Limiter $80.00
Q106 Oscillator (VCO) $195.00
Q107 Filter (VCF) $136.00
Q108 Amplifier (VCA) $97.00
Q109 Envelope Generator $92.00
Q110 Noise Source $65.00
Q112 Mixer 4-Channel $81.00
Q117 Sample and Hold $92.00
Q124 Multiples $58.00
Q137 Power Control $92.00
QCP22 Portable Cabinet $225.00
QDH20 Power Harness $55.00
QPS1 Power Supply $175.00
Grand Total $1,627.00
Add a Catgirl Synth Dual LFO for $130 and you get $1757. With a lot more functionality and flexibility for future upgrades for your extra $100. I'm just confused since the MMM was built up as such an extreme bargain.
Keep in mind you're comparing system pricing with an ala carte collection to match functionality. You're going to pay more.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to compare starter system to starters system, even though the functionality doesn't map exactly, a 10 module doepfer starter system (including MIDI interface and two oscillators) costs $1450 from analogue haven.
ahem.
God damn it people...your frac crap and doepfer nonsense is not portable in the same way that this is. Portability always costs extra money.
ReplyDelete"Portability always costs extra money."
ReplyDeleteD**n right!
It's like adding up all the needed cards and modules for the PC tower under your desk and then saying it's a much better deal than a laptop.
And the Doepfer rules MMM posts have now been so frequent and merciless; I almost get the impression there's a Doepfer dealer behind it.
It is always good to see an enginner go out on a limb and offer something new and interesting. (Or old and interesting.) And I must say I love this new trend (first the DSI P8 and now this!) of minimal hype followed by a completely ready brand-new product! Congratulations, George, and welcome back to analog synth manufacturing...I hope the people who buy this system make some great music with it.
ReplyDeleteCongrats George you endured enough "Attaboy's" and "Teeth gnashing" to probably last you a long while.
ReplyDeleteIt's a very nice looking Synth, looking forward to hearing it.
It strikes me as curious how vehemently people wanted this thing to be nearly free, and are pissed that it's not a 500 dollar modular!
ReplyDeleteI am a doepfer owner and I love my little silver box, but this is really a great idea, built by a man who knows what he's doing, for a very specific purpose. While I think that the VC/Midi sync-able LFO would have been a nice touch I don't think it's as necessary as some of the hardcore MMM bashers have stated.
Standard schmandard. If the world was standard all our synths would look and sound the same. Who wants a beige world? Not I. Sit this little puppy on top of your dotcom, doepfer, blacet, stop your whining and get to patching! It's all for fun and profit anyway right?
btw great job George, can't wait to hear some samples!
George, when will this be available for Canadians?
ReplyDeletesuperb,good job on the case stephen.
ReplyDeleteam just totaly disapointed we cannot buy seperate modules without first buying a complete system,this i seriously low level attitude,you will not sell many systems..
or can uorder a system with ur own choice of modules,then it would be ok..?
> @*# damn it people...your frac crap and doepfer nonsense is not portable in the same way that this is. Portability always costs extra money.
ReplyDeleteI really like the small size of the MMM but I disagree that the MMM is somehow much more portable than a Doepfer suitcase.
Congratulations and good luck to George, in any case (pun alert!).
I must say that I the MMM interests me, it looks good and I like new stuff!
ReplyDeletePart of me wants to go with the MMM but another part of me wants to keep my modular all in my rack.
I'm torn; but I think this features Vs $$$ thing is going to be the real killer for me. There is nothing there that really makes me desperate to have one. That + the entry level cost, it's just doesn't seem worth it.
Hopefully MMM gets going and will start selling single modules. I would definitely grab a module or two (if they could be fitted to a frac or euro rack)
MMMeh..it does look small
ReplyDeleteAlso, keep in mind this thing is HAND MADE! I would rather pay a little more and have something UNIQUE and with hand made quality.
ReplyDeleteHeath
From George's Letter:
ReplyDelete"I’m 'selling the steak, not the sizzle'".
Oh thank the dear lord in heaven. Thank you. I like synthesizers, not salesmen. The minute you have to start hyping something, I know immediately that it has less value then presented. Period.
I'll be very interested in hearing the 24dB SVF filter!
And the oscillator waveforms at different octaves.. A few oscillators and a couple of filters, easily done in this case, will sound very powerful. Add looping envelopes and a full case will be able to produce some nice evolving sounds.
And metal jacks.
And how nice that it can pass as carry-on luggage.
very cool, bring on the sound samples!
ReplyDeleteare you delivering a unit to keyboard magazine for some more publicity and a review?
who is posting video from the AH meet?
still wondering why you need even one knob...
Another thing worth noting is the price per module for expansion. $100 per module if you order them with the system, $105 if you order them after. Assuming you want some of the more interesting modules, you should come out ahead.
ReplyDelete"A ten module Doepfer system in a 4U aluminum rack is $1500. How is that such a better deal? The functionality is different but not better per se and the build quality on the Doepfers are only so-so."
ReplyDeleteI totally agree, personally i think doepfer sound like shit. They are the McDonalds of modulars.
first , thank you george. i support anyone going out on a limb and investing their time and money for the sake of their vision...did you have any idea of the reaction youd get here ??? wow....this is crazy....personally , im glad modular world is growing....im old enough to remember when very few gave a crap....the best of luck to you!
ReplyDeleteHi, time to wade in to the fray I guess. ^_^
ReplyDeleteI think people are missing that there's a lot of nice capability here that I just don't see everyday:
- The envelopes are all loopable with adjustable loop level.
- The sample-and-hold has its own built in oscillator and glide circuit as well as being switchable to a track-and-hold.
- The VCA can go from AM all the way into deep ring modulation.
- The oscillator has octave switching on the individual waveform outs.
- The dual LFOs waveforms' can be skewed by an adjustable ammount.
- The onboard MIDI/CV converter has fixed time as well as the more usual fixed rate glide built in (and another directional glide module for CV slew duties).
- The mixer can be used for CVs as well as audio and has an inverted out in addition to the usual one.
- Besides white and pink noise, there's also a slower-changing variant included.
Potent little system I'd say ^_-
I just posted the following on a VSE thread on the MMM and figured I'd put this up here as well:
ReplyDelete"It's cheep for what it is - the quality of the modules, some of the extra (non-standard) functionality and the size. When I first talked to George about getting a modular I told him that if someone would come up with a system that sold modules for $100 a pop regardless of the module type, I'd be in heaven. Every month I could probably pop in a few modules. I also wanted a Syntar but I couldn't afford one at the time so I asked him if he could build me one when I could. He said it would be very difficult with the custom case, so I asked, "what about a modular?" And... He decided to do it. : ) Not just for me, but as the Phoenix Series.
So, we now have a modular system where you can plop in a new module for $105 a pop, regardless of what that module is. $105 for an additional multi-pole filter. $105 for an OSC with independent octave switches for each waveform. And... if you get the module when you order the system its only $100 a module.
Carbon111 and I have had some time with the prototype and it does sound good. I haven't tried Doepfer yet so I cannot comment on the audio and quality of the components, but I keep hearing references to them sounding generic and/or cheap. I don't know... I love all synths and the samples I heard of Doepfer sounded alright to me. I still plan to get one, one day, but... the point is, I definitely do not get that vibe from the Phoenix. I played with the Syntar and it is a very strong sounding synth. Bold oscillators with a definite presence. Not like a Minimoog or an ARP but bold in it's own right. The closest thing it sounds like to my ears is the EML and of course George not only has an EML system but he sent his designs for the Syntar to EML to manufacture back in the day. The Phoenix has this sound. In my opinion it is like a modern day EML modular, but don't tell George. ;) It is 100% his design except for the filter which is a Jim Patchell design.
In short, this is a very nice quality modular synth with some very interesting extras. The size of it is just slightly larger than a sheet of typing paper. Think about that for a moment. 24 modules in the panel space the size of two sheets of paper that you can fold into a case and take on the road. I don't think you can get this with any other modular in the market. And... you get this for the same if not a slightly lower cost. Note that the cost goes down as you start adding modules. I don't know of any other manufactures that have $105 filters or OSCs in this league. You can also stack and interlock the cases on the fly with the hinge system he has in place, so expansion is easy. It really is a well thought out design."
Just saw Carbon111's comments above. And all of that too! :) Seriously guys, this is a killer system.
ReplyDelete> still wondering why you need even one knob...
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing the knob on the power supply module is to put a little extra plastic between you and 120V AC
I will never understand format wars. I love my eurorack modular, but I don't feel the need to put it above any other synth.
ReplyDeleteModulars are awesome, Paia to Buchla and everything in between.
Great job George. This looks like a winner to me.
Senso said "And the Doepfer rules MMM posts have now been so frequent and merciless; I almost get the impression there's a Doepfer dealer behind it."
ReplyDeleteAh yes, part of the large modular synth mafia, no doubt. Seriously, Doepfer is, for better or worse, the low-cost modular that most people are familiar with. I think such comparisons are natural.
I suppose my previous post in this thread could be interpreted as shilling for Doepfer, but that really isn't the case, or my intent. Everybody knows I only shill for Buchla :-). I just wanted to show that price wasn't the real issue, here. It will all boil down to features and sound. Buy the system that best suits your needs.
Britney Spears said "your frac crap and doepfer nonsense is not portable in the same way that this is."
Sure it is. If you look at the dimensions of the Doepfer suitcase, you'll see that they are not too far off of the dimensions of the MMM case. The Doepfer case takes up less table width when the respective cases are opened. I don't have numbers to compare, but I imagine that the weights are roughly in the same ballpark.
-----
Once again, none of this is meant to take away from the MMM system. If you are going to build a new system, it's well worth consideration, particularly if you are going to stay with one vendor for the whole system. Who knows, if the MMM form factor gets popular, there may be modules from other manufacturers in this format. I think that there is some innovative design behind some of the MMM modules, and it's a welcome addition to the modular community. It's a good time to be interested in modular synthesizers.
I'm tellin' you... do "cross format" and you'll be in business for a very long time.
ReplyDelete"I'm tellin' you... do "cross format" and you'll be in business for a very long time."
ReplyDeleteSounds like a plan, good luck with it!
peake said - And how nice that it can pass as carry-on luggage...
ReplyDeleteGood luck trying to board a plane with it, looks like it could be a suitcase nuke.
"Good luck trying to board a plane with it, looks like it could be a suitcase nuke."
ReplyDeleteOh? Its that complicated huh? I thought it was a toy for a n00bie?
"I bet the "home depot" guy that felt the need to post in every thread with authority feels retarded now, LOL!"
ReplyDeletehow do you think the modules are mounted in the case? electrical boxes.
so let's see an empty MMM case.
Just read a post on AH, from John Blacet slamming the MMM, what a tool this guy must be. What is he afraid he might sell 3 less modules because of the MMM..I could never imagine Bob Moog slamming his competition in such a crass and loathsome way. What an insecure and little man..much smaller even than his modules. Good luck George, I think you got a winner there!
ReplyDeleteMatrix said: "The closest thing it sounds like to my ears is the EML and of course George not only has an EML system but he sent his designs for the Syntar to EML to manufacture back in the day. The Phoenix has this sound. In my opinion it is like a modern day EML modular"
ReplyDeleteWooah! My EML 101 is one of the best sounding rawest meanest synths I've heard. If this is a more patchable version of that it's gonna be amazing! Know what, the 101 doesn't have Sync or PWM either and I don't care, it rips like nothing else.
Don't make too much of the EML connection. The Syntar was built by EML using Mattsons's designs.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the "board a plane with it" thing, see this news item from a few days ago:
http://machinist.salon.com/blog/2007/09/21/star_simpson/index.html
Blacet's post was crass but you are not exactly holding the high moral ground by insulting him.
"how do you think the modules are mounted in the case? electrical boxes."
ReplyDeleteI would guess that they are just screwed directly to rails, like evry other modular. Why are you so obsessed with electrical boxes? Not only do we had a Doepfer salesman here, looks like we also have a home depot salesman trying to puch the slow selling electrical boxes. LOL!
looking forward to hearing this thing. Congratulations to the designer/engineer. If I were to buy a modular at this point, no question I'd take a looong hard look at the MMM. One of the few things that's prevented me from jumping in has been the form factor. I just don't have the space.
ReplyDeleteThanks again.
uh uh uh uh oh damn....damn thats beautiful stuff. anyone want to buy my ms-20?
ReplyDeletenew blacet?
ReplyDeleteWhy does everyone point out that $105 is slightly cheaper than normal for an OSC or Filter but ignore that it's way more expensive than normal for noise/mixer/multiple/etc modules? Especially when you consider those are actually the bulk of your typical modular.
ReplyDeleteI don't think people would have been nearly so upset if this hadn't been billed all week as "super cheap" and "everything possible was done to make this the cheapest modular on the market". When in reality, it's a bit more expensive on a cost/function basis?
I also don't get the Doepfer backlash. They have some of the more imaginative modules available today (Subharmonic generatoes, wavetable osc's, voltage controlled logic modules/comparators, etc...).
I don't think the backlash would be nearly so great if this hand't been so over hyped all week long to a reveal that didn't match the promises.
Mostly the people hyping this way over-priced system are directly involved with the project.
ReplyDeletePerhaps the competition for this is not Doepfer and other cheap systems but boutique patchable synths like the Semtex, S1, Vostok, M5 and others. In that case this is a bargain.
ReplyDeleteBlacet was mocking the flame wars of the past (the difference being, someone in those wars was seriously putting ill on other manufacturers and hiding behind humor- one person shitting where we all eat. Brings it down for everyone. Too much fear going around, masquerading as "humor". Grow up. And admit when you're wrong instead of attacking those who are right. Grow up.
ReplyDeleteThe Doepfer sounds good. As someone here said, Kraftwerk use them (and helped to define a bit of it). I've seen them use it in concert over huge PAs, and it sounded good. There are killer features in that system.
Eagerly awaiting sound samples of the MMM...
When do we get to hear it?
ReplyDelete"Mostly the people hyping this way over-priced system are directly involved with the project."
ReplyDeleteI’d have to agree with this and a lot of other comments.
The hype / build up was WAY over done, annoying and attention whoring. I can understand Matrix's excitement about all of this, being somewhat responsible for its inception. And it is his site so he can do what he wants but still.
As for the backlash over the price. Its 100% because its being marketed as a "cheap" starter system. Which it clearly is NOT. All you had to do was take the cheap tag off, but then you wouldn't have received this sort of response would you? All designed to get your attention.
I can respect the work that went into this thing and I'm sure its great if not a little on the "I made this in my bedroom" side with your piss yellow poorly spaced design but you really should not have pretended this was something that it clearly is not.
Other then that, best of luck to you. It looks good when its all together. Like one of those travel mini bars from the 70’s.
This system is being judged before very many people have had a chance to hear it or play with it. Interestingly, it's getting both positive and negative "reviews" from people who haven't heard it. That might have something to do with the hype buildup, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteWell since nobody has been allowed to hear it yet, all they have to go on is:
ReplyDelete1) Empty promises of this being the cheapest modular of all time and the best deal ever in synthesizer history.
2) Cost/function analysis on a module to module basis with other modular systems.
3) The noted "homerism" of the people who have a stake in this new system. Seriously I wonder if Matrix was PAID to say all of this the further along this goes.
The whole "$105 a module" no matter what it is is totally asinine. $105 may be OK for a limited VCO or VCF but $105 for a Noise Generator, Glide control, or Buffers?
ReplyDeletePeake wrote:
ReplyDelete"The Doepfer sounds good."
Well, like all things that is completely subjective and based on personnal preference. Personally, I thought the Doepfer sounded shite. (again, only my opinion) I sold my Doepfer system and went with Blacet instead. I am VERY happy with my decision to do so.
RE: the sorry state of the synth community
ReplyDeleteDear Matrix, George, SJ and whoever else was involved.
Man, I gotta say, I feel for you. I used to look forward to the day when synthesizers became truly popular. But if that means every anon. @sshole meh-niac comes out of the woodwork, we were better off before. I hope you've got thick skin, you're surely gonna need it by the looks of things.
I'm totally groovin' on this whole MMM development, release and the ramp up as well. F*ck those losers with fish hooks.
Who said it was going to be the cheapest modular out there? Someone find the quote and post it please.
ReplyDeleteThe hype was:
1. The size
2. The suitcase/form factor
3. The price (as in affordable and cheap for what it offers - size, sound and some unique features)
I don't believe there was a single comment comparing it to Doepfer or others. You people are playing on your assumptions.
The posts had zero descriptions as well - jut the image of the modular. This was done on purpose, not to mislead anyone. They were put up for people to see and comment on. It just so happens that there are a lot of bitter and cynical people out there. Of course the supporters decided to come out defend. What did you think would happen?
BTW, this is no different than other announcements. Plan b for example. No matter what you put out there, someone is going to come out and bash it. Same for Doepfer which is clearly apparent in these comments.
It is an interesting community. For such a small one it does get quite heated. In a way it's an interesting psychological profile on some enthusiasts. Instead of getting excited and supporting a new system, there are people out there that decide they'd rather take it down. BTW, the other option of course is for manufactures to just stop and we can just stick to one format and one brand.
Every other post from George stressed how "cheap" it was and that because you weren't getting knobs or proper graphics or many standard features in the modules, that you wouldn't end up paying as much.
ReplyDeleteWell, you do pay as much. You pay exactly as much. A lot of the "unique extras" are actually things that are standard in most modulars but people heard someone say they are unique and keep repeating it. I don't know of a mixer module that DOESN'T take CV. I have seen no less than 3 S&H modules that have glide and an internal oscillator. Etc etc...
Why all of the hype? Is this really that much more convenient than a Doepfer or a Dotcom suitcase of roughly the same dimensions, with modules that have more functionality for the same or less money?
Take a look above. Comparable system from Doepfer and Dotcom are more. So based on that it actually is cheaper, no?
ReplyDeleteA whopping $27 more for a Dotcom system that blows it away in functionality and expandability. Has knobs and screenprinted front graphics, and is also all hand built.
ReplyDeleteUnless you plan on stuffing that second box full of 12 oscillators, the price only gets skewed further the more you add. Paying $105 for a Mixer/Noise/Buffer is a steep rip off compared to the same modules selling for $50-90 from other companies. You also start to run into the wall in terms of selection. Why do I want 4 mixers or something when I can't even get a VC switch or pand/fade or a delay or reverb or instrument interface or ....
I suppose you could load up on like 6 OSC's, but there's not much point since you can't sync, do FM, or do polyphony.
You noticed? ;) Dotcom is pretty large, no? I could say the MMM blows away the Dotcom, but I won't. They are all different. My recommendation to people is to just check out the MMM site. Review the modules in detail. Check out the forums and ask questions there. Also read George's letter that pretty much explains everything.
ReplyDeleteIgnore the trolls here. We will be moving along to other posts soon enough so the discussion here will end.
And... take the comments here with a grain of salt. Based on a comment on the AH list from another manufacturer I would not be suprised that some of the negative comments here are coming from other manufacturers that are a tad bit scared. Also... people do have a tendency to defend their purchases so if you have a Doepfer or a Dotcom you are most likely going to find a way to convince yourself it is better. For you maybe it is.
Regardless. There is a new Modular in town whether you like it or not. Period. Some of us appreciate that. Others not so much.
It's time for me to move on. Have at it folks. I'm happily awaiting my MMM.
The dotcom portable cabinet is a wopping 5" taller. 22 module spaces instead of 24, but since their modules pack for features, it's pretty even. The size is really not that big of a difference, why try and make it out to be?
ReplyDelete"people do have a tendency to defend their purchases so if you have a Doepfer or a Dotcom you are most likely going to find a way to convince yourself it is better. For you maybe it is."
ReplyDeleteNo offence matrix, but could this not also be said of you since this was kind of your idea and you have been defending it in the same way?
wow are you sure this isnt a Buchla thread? Seems to be as many responses for the Buchla entries :-)
ReplyDeleteEnd of the day I would love to buy one, but have a Synthi AKS, Serge and Eurorarack,Plan B Livewire Panther etc, so dont really need another modular, but if I could I would :-) good luck with it all
I wonder how wise it was introduce the MMM in this manner. This forum can be brutal and unforgiving. I guess only time will tell.
ReplyDeletemeh
ReplyDeleteI wonder how much matrix is getting paid for this.
ReplyDelete"I wonder how much matrix is getting paid for this."
ReplyDeleteProbably nothing, but he probably gets a free MMM system!
I think it's super-cute. So there!
ReplyDelete"I think it's super-cute. So there!"
ReplyDeleteSo are you actually going to buy one? If not, who cares if you think its cute. Just sayin'.
has anyone ordered one yet?
ReplyDeleteSo when are we going to be able to buy the modules individually? I think that would make it much more successful than making people buy the whole system.
ReplyDelete"No offence matrix, but could this not also be said of you since this was kind of your idea and you have been defending it in the same way?"
ReplyDeleteI never said anything negative about the other systems now did I? I think you just proved my point for me.
As for getting paid, I didn't. I bought my system. No discount. I basically liked what I saw and decided to go for it. Well, actually I asked George if he could build me a Syntar as a modular because I liked how it sounded, so he did.
ReplyDeleteOk, now can you post a sample of its audio? I mean how hard can it be to record a filter sweep? Something, anything.
ReplyDeleteJames, George and I recorded some sounds tonight. I'll need to go through it. We did demonstrate filter growl/sweeping, as well as the flexibility of the single oscillator via the 4xMixer module which allowed us to create doubling effects as well as harmonic effects that were incredible. A few others included some ring and frequency modulation. James wants to work up some musical sound samples as well that feature the modular multi-tracked, so give him some time for that.
ReplyDeleteI would say that at this point, nobody cares about musical sounding samples and would prefer just some one-shot technical examples. Especially if it means getting the samples in a few minutes as opposed to waiting another day.
ReplyDeleteI think the fact that you NEED to buy the initial system first off will be a boon to potential buyers. I realize that modulars are a rather boutique area, and not for everyone. But being forced to purchase an entire system off the bat will no doubt detract potential first time modular buyers. Unless you're rich =o] I know i can't afford it. Oh well, i guess i'll stick to trying to buy Doepfer modules.
ReplyDeleteghostdog said "wow are you sure this isnt a Buchla thread?"
ReplyDeleteInteresting isn't it? Having been on the receiving end of a couple of those, I can see a similar pattern here. People (mostly Britney Spears, er...anonymous) complain about price, people complain about features. There is little actual debate, mostly just restating of positions. It can get tiresome.
I just want to HEAR it for the love of god.
ReplyDelete"I would say that at this point, nobody cares about musical sounding samples and would prefer just some one-shot technical examples."
ReplyDeleteYou'd be surprised... This is Matrixsynth after all. Don't forget the popcorn.
The introduction of this system has really been ill-conceived and executed. A week of endless hype and ridiculous claims of sounds we couldn't even "dream of" and then finally going live with a web site but no audio demos.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I don't have mine yet, so no samples from me. George, James and Stephen are working on the samples but it's um, pretty late, so have some patience if it's not tonight. Realize the whole system was announced in a week, with the designs complete, and there is a working functional prototype. I think only Dave Smith beat that with the Prophet '08.
ReplyDeletei am a naysayer/troll, i dont build synths i dont even own a modular yet, so i figure i am a prime mmm customer, and i am thinking doepfer or frac rack is better for me.
ReplyDeleteso don't go point fingers at scared manufacturers.
i say let the modular speak for itself
ReplyDeleteit is a little hard to believe samples weren't prepared in advance. send a system to stefan trippler, he'll get you some mp3s...
btw, for computer controlled: boon == benefit, or something favorable, i don't think that's what you meant
I guess I'm just confused. If you have a system to take pictures of, whats the hold up on some audio? I'm not asking for Opus No. 12 for the MMM, just some basic "here's a middle C filter sweep", "Here's me holding middle C flipping the octave switches on the Osc" etc... Stuff that should take about an hour from start to finish.
ReplyDeleteIt's just a bit head scratching is all. I would have thought audio samples would be something to include with a website launch.
my guess is that there were problems with the home unit so he had to go out and use another. its completely understandable. there are ALWAYS problems at launch. its just how it goes, and its hard to plan for and he did say several times that there are still bugs to work out before he can ship, which sounds to me like a confirmation of this.
ReplyDeletei guess i’ll throw in my two cent -
the individual modules look just “o.k.” but i’m very picky, with the case it looks a 100 times better.
it was way over hyped i’m not sure how intentional all of this was but it definitely worked too well and like peter said “for every 1 shit-talker there are 10 new happy customers” - i’m paraphrasing there. but when you bring people out of the woodwork like this you are asking for trouble.
george probably said a few things he shouldn't have but i'm sure his head was all over the place dealing with the launch and the shit storm of posters, you people are brutal, but i get it. there was the occasional bad choice of words and a little bit of talking down that could have been held back but george is a vet and 100’s of posts later i still haven’t seen anyone truly pissed at him. i think he handled himself far better then i ever could or would. all of this might keep me from ever trying to go this far myself.
people will defend their investments to the death (for example - FUCK the x-box!)
in the end it will probably fit right into the hole in the market that it was intended for and everything will mellow out and he will keep his customers happy.
and matrix one of the first things george said was the word "cheap" so its not like people are making that up. the only real answer to “cheap” is diy.
best of luck george, but you probably won’t need it. and you should listen to the people complaining about the graphics and give them some more options since all you have to do is print out a different file. hell i’ll even do a set for free, people seem to like my work.
i recently looked up a few of the frequent haters on myspace. and you know what? all of them are single males, and pretty old at that. so either theyre gay (nothing wrong with that) or theyre just lonely, bitter old men (more likely). haters, either jump off a tall building and end the self hatred that you misdirect towards others or get some fucking manners and keep your negativity to yourselves.
ReplyDeletei wish george the best of luck with this project and only wish matrix would expose the people who are constantly sitting around their computers waiting to put other people down.
who cares about price? if youre so concerned that doepfer is only a few bucks more, buy a doepfer and stfu. anyone with 1/2 a brain in their head knows no 2 modular systems are going to sound alike unless theyre copies of 1 another.
im curious to know - how many syntars were made?
and werent these made from EML diy kits?
j. blacet knows his shit and makes a good point. the reason why anon's have been getting a bit catty is probably down to the amount of MMM spam on this blog. every day more butt-ugly beige and faux-retro cursive. makes synth.com (battered chevy pickup w/ gun rack) and paia (reliant robin) look almost sexy.
ReplyDeleteas an analogy, p. grenader sometimes goes a bit overboard imo in hyping up stuff that isn't out yet, and that draws some heat on the blogs, but then he makes unique, intelligently designed instruments that sound great... the actual working musicians will stick with serge, nord and eurorack modulars for the most part and in a few months this will all be history.
Can it be ordered, fully expanded, with 12 power supplies?
ReplyDeleteI need lots of power for my epic power rock ballads.
I realize, of course, some of the power supplies would need to be mounted vertically.
POWERRRRRRrrz
I found this on youtube, but why so cryptic?
ReplyDeletehttp://youtube.com/watch?v=jELCwj4IJ2w
two points -
ReplyDelete1. regarding "cheapness" - George retracted that suggesting "inexpensive" was a better word.
2. regarding John Blacet's comment: someone suggested he was mocking all the negative comments. hard to tell with email
LOL at the cell phone video of the MMM on YouTube. Sometimes, something isn't better than nothing. Bring on the real thing already
Oooh! - a cell-phone movie, which was recorded off of the cell phone with another camera, and then uploaded to YouTube. I can just feel the production values oozing out of this one. I can see why they didn't link to this from their site.
ReplyDeleteIt takes a lot of work to make a demo that won't get dragged through the mud here. Let's give them a little time to get some demos together.
To all the people who complained about demos not being ready when the web site was launched: when was the last time a manufacturer launched a business with a complete modular line? Even though MMM pretty much had to do this because of their new for factor, it does not take away from how much work it was. I think they're doing a fairly good job in responding to a flood of interest.
They did manage to make quite a splash with the way they managed this launch. Given that they won't have dealers working for them, it's important for them to generate some publicity.
I, for one, am all for cutting them some slack, and waiting until they release some proper demos, and some people get some hands-on time with the system before coming to any conclusion.
btw, for computer controlled: boon == benefit, or something favorable, i don't think that's what you meant
ReplyDeleteHaha, you are correct. But by the time i figured it out, i was too tired to bother to resubmit another post =o] Tired posting on the int0rw3b should be a crime =o]
I'll speak up now. I was gone and it took a loooong time to read all of this.
ReplyDeleteI'll address a few items.
1: Yes, I initialy said Cheap. I rescinded the "C" word and said that "inexpensive" would be a better choice.
2: No, I was expecting a few posts a day. Not this explosion. I let Matrix handle how it was introduced. It was casual conversation that led to this. I gave him the opportunity to announce it.
I thought listing the modules individually was a good idea. It gave everybody a chance to look at them by themselves. I had no idea that people could be so cruel just because I wanted to make something fun.
3: I never said it can create "sounds you never dreamed of". I said I like to teach, I want to give back to the synth community I've loved for so long. I can teach you ways of thinking about patching or audio so you can do things you never dreamed of. Or, something to that effect without re-reading a ton of responses.
People suddenly mocked me as "oh great guru..." etc, etc. OK, if you're not interested, you're not interested. I'm not obligated to give back anything. It was just an offer.
4:The basic system concept is simple. It gives everybody a basic place to start and try a couple modules they normally wouldn't get because they may not inherently understand the function by just looking at it or reading it.
Which leads in to ..
5: There's one VCO. yes, there is. There wasn't room for another one and keep it in the 12-space cabinet. The second cabinet was initially just a cover and was expanded to be a second 12-space cabinet. I have a nifty little 4X gate delay module that we never showed. It's not useable unless you have a bunch of multiple signal paths. So, it was never mentioned.
5:I priced everything so I can hand-make these by myself in small quantities if necessary. I pretty much break even. I wasn't trying to compete with the other systems. This is what I can produce these for. With the basic system, I know what I need to order and can determine my exact costs, which leads to...'
6: Individual module sales.
I couldn't start out with individual module sales. I don't have investment capital backing me up. The sheet metal work alone is a big expense. Small orders of PCBs are a large expense. The only way I could offer this was to sell basic systems then, my cost drops. By letting people order additional modules as part of the basic system, I would know which modules people were interested in and be able to get some extras at the quantity price level and be able to offer them as individual sales. Until my first production run, I can't do that.
7: I thought that by averaging the overall costs of the different modules, I could just offer them at one price. Loose money on some, make it up on others. It was supposed to make it easy, not start a war.
8: You asked why this doesn't have this, or why it did have that, etc, etc.
I provided basic modules with some "easy-to-do" additions I thought were nice additions. Some guy asked "why a manufacturer would produce a product without doing the proper market research?"
I just did. Now I know what the cross section of the global synth community would like as features and what features they aren't interested in obtaining. I didn't have to pay a dime for it, the potential consumers gave their opinion freely, and every manufacturer out there know's what the customer feels is important. Thank you.
9: 25 Syntars were manufactured. 15 were actually produced.
10:The Syntar was not built from EML circuit modules. The original prototype was. (wood case, 25 LBS.-heavy).
I hired and paid EML to design the system to my specifications. I'm glad they did custom work. I didn't have time for it, they were a respected manufacturer, had the knowlege and it worked.
The EML 101 had a 2-pole, 12dB/Octave filter. I wanted a 4-Pole, 24dB/Octave filter. Current EML linear response was 1.2V/Octave. I requested 1V/Octave. They chose to utilize the SSM 2040. The list goes on.
11: I just wanted to do something I like to do for the people that would be intrested. Obviously, I wasn't trying to produce breakthrough technology. I originally was going to use an OEM, commercially available MIDI-CV. But it was cheaper to design this. Because the other system fit nicely under the power supply. The new one added a ton of features and I had to re-design the board. The supply took up more than 1 space and I had to cram a lot of parts into a smaller area. I received the boards Tuesday, in the middle of the release sequence. I'm impressed it worked at all when we turned it on.
12: My graphics guy dropped the ball, he knew my deadline. He hadn't produced the graphics by the time we started the release. I did exactly what I've been telling people they can do. Instead of having a nice set of adhesive vinyl, pre-cut graphics, I had to print them on photo paper, glue them on and trim them with a Xacto knife. DIY guys have leisure time to do that. I had a lot going on and a tight set of deadlines to keep up with the pace.
13: My original prototype was in a case I painted black. The wood for this came in too long and I had to buy some tools to cut it and put it together. I wanted a more "realistic" representation of the case than the prototype I threw together.
14: Because of the graphics issue, I had modules spread all over my office in pieces, A MIDI board being made, a case being made and trying to answer questions. It was a chore to meet the deadlines but, I did it. I had no means to get sound bites because everything was spread out and disassembled. If I sounded terse or disrespectful at all, please forgive me. I didn't think I could move that fast. I expected to answer a few simple questions and explain my design philosophy, not have to defend myself because I wanted to offer something different. I had friends come out of the woodwork to help me out and take on some of the onslaught. Thank you all.
I had a handful of people here helping me with the boards, case, pix, etc. I want to thank them too. What a team.
I'll answer any other questions on my site forum. Let's give Matrix his Blog back.
George Mattson
you guys sure know how to take the wind out of the sails of a potentially cool project. its going to be a real shame if only a few people actually order systems, but it will be their loss.
ReplyDelete6 years later no PSIM-- BRICE D.HORNBACK IS A THIEF!! looking for a phone# and current address. He stopped responding to email from those of us he has ripped off 2+ years ago.
ReplyDelete